Luke 13:32.  "And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day (during His ministry?) and to morrow (the Church Age?), and the third day (after the Millennium?) I shall be perfected."

According to scripture it will be at the end of time when everything shall be perfected, not just when the Bible was given to us sometime back in history (which would have been 'the perfect' "in part" only).  Because at the end of time everything will be fulfilled and summed up in Christ:

Rev. 17:17-18.  "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

In other words everything shall be fulfilled when all things will be made new (and perfect).

Here's a query reinforcing what I am saying:  In the New Testament it says,  "Lay hands suddenly on no man".  Is this scripture confined to before the complete Bible was introduced, or relevant until the end of the church age?

I don't go around willy-nilly laying hands on people like I use to when I was first saved.  However, if I am familiar with, or spiritually comfortable about someone, I will sometimes put my arm around them, or on their shoulder, as a simple and natural response of compassion, or brotherly love, when praying for them.  On some occasions I do feel free too (excuse the word "feel" here) as laying on hands is scriptural and practised in the N.T.

It's quite sad how many would not be free to do this, because of their doctrinal background, through being bought up with the scriptures being broken into categories like ...  "This is not for today, but this is!"  "This is only referring to back then, not the present!"  And so on!  F'instance Jesus gave this command in Matthew 10:8:

"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

Some have been taught the first part of this sentence does not apply for today, whereas the other part applies for the present.  Therefore, under this surmisal the first part of the sentence only refers to the Jews whereas the latter part refers to the Gentiles.  Is there logic or scriptural proof in how this sentence must be cut up in the first place?  This is only one example of where scriptures have been broken making things rather messy in applying the New Testament to suit the Cessationalist viewpoint:

"All right to give freely, but forget about the miraculous!"  "All right to believe God worked through the divine right through the Old Testament era, at the beginning of the New Testament era, at the end of the New Testament era, during the future  Great Tribulation era, and during the New Millennium era; but never in the here and now!"  "All right to pray for someone, but make sure you don't touch them!"  "If it is not of the Lord then it will be of the Devil, cos Jesus said these things are not for today!"

Wouldn't it take less faith to believe the whole Book of Acts is for the whole Church Age and not just 'bits and pieces' for the latter end?  Or the whole Book of Acts is relevant for today not just until the introduction of the English Bible?  This would avoid certain verses being shunned, where others would have to be embraced, while someone "qualified" sorted out what was referring to the miraculous then, and what was acceptable in the Lord for the present.

I'm all for the inerrant English Bible, believing it is the continuation of the holy scriptures, the inspired and preserved words of God. However, I also believe His word is not fulfilled until the End, which Rev. 17-18 testifies to, in harmony with the rest of scripture.  Therefore, I do see Acts as the believers book of 'the Body of Christ demonstrated', being the historic record and blueprint (not a formulae to try and copycat) of the word of God being worked out and glorified through the Lord's people until the Great Translation (Rapture of the Bride).

F'instance, when our oldest son (till the age of about seven) had an incurable, involuntary cough that would keep one of his parents up all night beside his bed, night after night for years, you should imagine how testing this was for both of us.  Especially coming to the conclusion that nothing physically or medically worked.  Until the night during another enduring saga, when in desperation I spoke audibly to my wife making this statement, "I believe it is spiritual!!"  Whatever it was that was in my son manifested in a big way the very moment I had made this comment.  As my voice carried through the open lounge door, down the hallway and through the open door into the bedroom where my son was fast asleep, that is when the wicked thing in my son realized it had been detected and was about to be dealt with in the name of Jesus. 

We are still puzzled how or when this thing got there in the first place (the Lord has not revealed this thus far - also, I am personally now questioning the vaccination shots medically administered to him after birth without bringing it all before the Lord or question any of the whole pressurized procedure), but we know after prayer it is no longer there and my boy has been thoroughly healed.  Makes life a lot easier.  For him as well as his parents.  Praise the Lord!

Moreover, what happens when your house has been on the market for eighteen months with no sign of a sale on the horizon, when after the Lord has given you a dream (hoping I'm not an old man, as Acts 2:17) where you can turn and nudge your wife after wakening up, and say confidently to her, "our house is going to sell today!"?  Whereby the very same evening your house is under contract for the first time.

No spiritual gifts?  Then what happens when you are confronted with people with raging spirits in them?  Why put up with someone (or something) when you have to drive someone 200 miles (then back) in your own car, when someone who has been irrational and emotionally out of control on many occasions?  Better to bind up the devils at the beginning of the journey than have to put up with loud continued violent outbursts for hours and hours of travelling.  Or if you are chased down the road by a violent, doped up maniac?  What if there is no one around and he is bigger and can outrun you?  Better to turn around and face him, pointing at the evil spirits in him and commanding them to be neutralized in Jesus' name.

Then there is the question of believers coming under heavy depression, deep anxiety attacks from apparently nowhere, being placed in intimidatory circumstances, and so forth.  All spiritual in nature, and out to destroy a life, or throw a true believer off balance.

A good friend of mine who was young in the Lord and had a lot of adolescent problems before he came to the Lord, spun out on the birth of his first child, went on an emotional high he could not come down off, and started hearing other voices which he interpreted as being the Lord.  This was followed by him being controlled by paranoia and emotional abnormalities as things really got out of hand.  In normal situations this Brother's breakdown would have left him wrecked in a mental institution being held and even trapped under heavy sedation.  It may have taken him years to recover, if he did indeed make it in the end.  However, because this Brother was surrounded lovingly by strong men (fellow brethren outside the system), as well as having a very understanding wife, this all contributed to him overcoming this devilish onslaught on his life.  In total desperation one night, in the company of some who had been supporting him with friendship and prayer, and after much deliverance commotion, a brother called in at a timely situation and after approaching him very gently and quietly, whispered quietly in his ear these beautiful words ...   It is finished!! 

This was the beginning of his wonderful deliverance, as later that evening our Brother was found sitting down with his friends having a normal chat over a cuppa tea, and in his right mind.  He has never looked back since that night about 15 years ago, who is now father of four beautiful children.

Have you ever had a scripture appear, or a word of wisdom, from out of the blue, when placed in a difficult situation with someone?  But we'd better never call it a gift, or an inspired word from God (even though it lined up with scripture), just encase it is no longer for today and the Devil could be playing tricks.  If the Lord spoke through an ass in Old Testament times, could He not choose to speak through someone in another language they may never have learnt, if it meant the other party who spoke only that particular language had never heard the gospel before?  What if the Lord was glorified by others finding the Lord through this message?

Some would say they never see miracles or the Divine operating.  Therefore, logic would tell them that because they have not viewed the evidence they do not have to believe.  This could be due to a condition of being straight jacketed in a religious institution, or immune from the world outside their church, or purely because of unadulterated unbelief.  Whatever the reason, it is a poor excuse because the same question could be applied to ...  "what evidence is there of thousands being genuinely saved en mass, as in the early church, and being added to the church daily?"  Or, "what evidence is there of Christians selling up all and freely distributing their wealth among all the saints?"  Or, "what evidence is there Christians are still turning the world upside down as they did at the turn of the first Century?"  Or, "what evidence is there the Body can successfully operate as house churches without mother churches, as it did in the New Testament?"  Is this not the Lord's will for any age the gospel can be preached?

The reason is not the problem of it not being for today, but because of a spiritually bankrupt church.  Or wrong doctrine or misconceptions robbing us of the simple things in Christ.  How can there be healing if the Church of God is sick and divided through not discerning the Body?  How can the truth set people free if the truth is being blocked out by hierarchy and professional teachers?  How can there be a move of the Holy Ghost if the Spirit of God is being quenched by unbelief and folk mistaking sound doctrine for being tied up in church dogma or tradition, or going off in the other extreme of licence and spiritual bedlam?

Following is some correspondence between myself and someone else who believes the perfect arriving is 'when the Bible was given' but not 'fulfilled'.  You can draw your own conclusions, but here's hoping it will be through the eyes of a Berean and not a Segregationist (please note ...  some errors have been corrected to make it more reader friendly without changing the context):

Hi Sister,

We could go on into a real slinging match. However, because I do not want to be dragged into an endless, fruitless debate, I will only reply this once, as it is only the Lord who reveals truth by His Holy Ghost.  Hope you understand:

........@........ wrote:

Subject: Gidday!!
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:40:27 +1200
From: Tom Lamb <radicalpilgrim@xtra.co.nz>
To: (a certain sister in the Lord)

Hi There!

You say on your page:

"We know even with our finite minds, that if any human being takes up
poisonous snakes, ie; serpents, or drinks any deadly thing ie; poison,
it will not only hurt them, it will in fact, probably kill them!  And
what person do you know of in the world today, who can literally lay
hands on someone, who is dying of an illness, or has an incurable
disease, or even a broken arm, or leg, and that person will
instantaneously, or miraclously recover?  If you are honest with
yourself the answer is "No One".
 
"So right away that leads us to understand ,and to acknowledge that
these verses in Mark 16:17-18, are talking about spiritual things, and
not literal, or natural things, as some would have you to believe."

(pity, because you have got some good material on your site!)

If what you say on your page is truth about Mark 16: 17-18 that the
signs are not natural or literal, then Paul was being deceived by the
Devil on the Island of Malta when he was bitten by a viper.  Either one
or the other please?  Either he was healed fulfilling Jesus' prophetic
words in Mark 16 or the scriptures contradict.

In regards to laying hands on sick and praying for them ...  my father in law
two years ago prayed (in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ) for a lady
who was only given four months to live because of her cancer.  She is
now fit and well.  When I was only a babe in Christ I prayed for a
work mate who got excruciating migraines.  He was healed instantly.
Years later (although he still has not come to Christ) he told me how he
use to suffer with them all his life but he had not had once since I
laid hands on him and prayed for him.  I could go on and on.  You who
confess to be a Bible believer are just as bad as any other Alexandrian in
explaining away the scriptures.  Why has the modern versions put a question
mark (just like you) or removed this vital portion of scripture in Mark?

2 Cor. 13:8.  "For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the
truth."

In Jesus,

Tom.

Reply:

Tom says:

"If what you say on your page is truth about Mark 16: 17-18 that the
signs are not natural or literal, then Paul was being deceived by the
Devil on the Island of Malta when he was bitten by a viper.  Either one
or the other please?  Either he was healed fulfilling Jesus' prophetic
words in Mark 16 or the scriptures contradict."

Dear Tom,

Paul was not being deceived ... because in his day there was miraculous
healings and laying on of hands for miracles to occur ... before the bible was
complete ... the apostles did these miracles ... but once the bible was
complete ... there are no longer these kinds of miracles done today ...

Which means (according to you) these miracles were happening up until 1769 (or at least 1611) when the present AB was established.  Therefore, could you please give me reference to many of these miracles occurring up to 1611 or 1769 when apparently God said something like, "Stop, no more!  You don't need them ...  the Perfect is here!"  Also, could you please supply historic proof of the miraculous abruptly ending at this date?  Thanks!

The true miracle today is the miracle of salvation

And so was it in the day of Paul and the apostles, who also witnessed miracles and Mark 16: 17-18 being fulfilled.  As it was then (the day of grace) so it is now ...  people were being saved and experiencing the miraculous, the Divine, Almighty God, through His Son Jesus.

...  these were signs leading up to the healing of sin sick souls that only God can do through Jesus Christ, our
Lord, so that we will never die.  Physical healing is temporary

I think this is very obvious, physical healing is only temporary.  It was also only temporary in the early church, so the points you are making are going nowhere.

...  because we all will eventually die of some sickness, disease, accident, old age,
etc. ... but spiritual healing is forever!

Same in the early church's day!  Has anything changed?  ...  "though our outward man perish ... "

Quote ..."He was healed instantly. Years later (although he still has not come to Christ)" end quote ...  How sad to
be healed of a sickness and still not come to know Christ ... What was the point?

Sad?  Yes!  What was the point?  How pathetic to answer this way.  This man has still got probably about 20 to 40 years left to his life to repent (although there is no guarantee he will) and has never forgotten this kind act of Jesus' compassion ...  a hand on his shoulder with a simple prayer in the name of Jesus.  Have you ever had just one migraine?  What about getting them all the time?  Even if he never comes to the Lord, although tragic, it will not be my problem as I both witnessed to him, and prayed for him.  I was only being obedient (verse 18).  Even Ezekiel was commanded to preach to Israel even though the Lord said they will not listen to him.  You don't hold a good deed back from the needy (whether a glass of cold water or a spiritual blessing) just because they might not come to the Lord.  Did all the people Jesus heal become His disciples?  Were they all saved in the end?  What about the ten lepers?  Paul cast out the spirit of divination out of the damsel.  What proof do we have she found Jesus (and what would you have done in this situation)?  Jesus healed the soldier who had his ear cut off.  But did this soldier show remorse?  Did he give up arresting Jesus?

The Lord died for the WHOLE world but only a few will make it.  This is tragic!  However, it is also the reality of the situation, and should not interfere with us bringing the gospel to the WHOLE world.

He will die eventually anyway as we all will unless Christ comes back
first.  He will have to stand in front of the judgment throne of almighty God
and be found guilty and sentenced to an eternity in hell, if he does not come to
know Jesus Christ before he dies ...  So what he needed was the healing of his
sins ...  not the healing of his body ...  you miss the point entirely ...

No, I think you missed the point entirely as already explained.  Your logic is religious, and naive, but not scriptural!  Your unreasoning is broader than what you can see saying we don't have to worry about the cup of water in His name, or tending to the beaten man on the street in the case of the Samaritan, or caring for the poor.  What you are saying in effect is we only need to tend to the gospel in getting folk saved ...  natural or physical needs are not important, or at least, are not our responsibility.

NO ONE is going around today laying hands on all the sick, diseased, dying
people of the world and they are all being healed instantly ...  else all the
hospitals would be empty...

This reasoning is also totally unreasonable and ridiculous.  Just because people are being healed here and there in small numbers doesn't mean hospitals are being emptied.  Why should they be?  At present the Body of Christ is sick and largely passive, so how can the Holy Ghost move through an unbelieving and stunted church as it did in Acts?  Especially when passages in God's word like Mark 16: 17-18 are being questioned, or explained away (by the likes of  yourself), or removed.  It will take more than a divided, sick, limp, unbelieving church to see the Lord working in the miraculous as He did in Acts.  I'm not talking about embracing the corrupt Charismatic Movement either, or joining the fuzzy Pentecostal Movement; but embracing the word of God from Genesis to Revelation.  This makes you a Bible believer and a contender for the faith in the true sense.  Not a defender of a movement nor a denomination.  Nor a defender of some groups precious "doctrine" based on portions of scripture that suit.

I know that God does answer prayer for healings ...  if it is his will to do so ...
But not by someone just going into any hospital any where and laying hands on
the sick and they will recover.

I'm glad you see God can do, and is still doing this.  Here is just another example (one of many):  A few years ago I tutored a young teenage girl on the drums.  She could play and enjoy music because although being born deaf, when she was just four years old her saved Christian mother asked the Lord to heal her one evening beside her bed (just another night of bedtime prayers).  Instantly the girl heard all the noise of the family down stairs for the first time and life was different for her from then on.

This verse is talking spiritual healing ...  To
recover from sin sickness and to inherit eternal life ...  not temporary health
healings and not knowing Christ ...  May God give you His truth.

Truth is believing it, acting on it, and letting it prove itself!  Saying Mark 16: 17-18 is just "spiritual" only or not literal, is folly as you have already contradicted yourself by acknowledging Paul's physical healing on Malta.  No more migraines is physical!  Tell my ex-work mate it is not?  No more cancer is physical!  Tell the elderly lady it is not (who has since found the Lord by the way)!  Receiving instant hearing after prayer is physical!  Tell our young Sister in the Lord it is not!

As I say I am only scraping the surface of the miracles I have witnessed or been familiarized with in my walk over a period of 27 years.

De 29:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and
those great miracles:
4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and
ears to hear, unto this day.

Mt 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

In Christ ........

James 1:17.  "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

Is healing a person with cancer, migraine, deafness, or any other ailment a good and perfect gift from above?  "If we, in need, ask our Heavenly Father for a fish will he for a fish give him a serpent?"  If we, in need, ask our Heavenly Father for a spiritual gift will He say, "No way ...  the door was closed back in 1611!"  Or when the last apostle died (whoever that was)!

By the way ...  while we are on the subject of what's 'perfect' let's rightly divide 1 Corinthians 13:10 ...  "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away,"  in the light of other scripture?  F'instance Heb. 2:8:

"Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

Therefore, the Perfect has not arrived as I (we) see Him "through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

A key ... "we see not yet ALL things put under him".  Another key ...  "now I know in part".  Not quite perfect yet, eh!

Jesus' finished work on the cross was perfect!  The fulfilling of a better hope (the New Covenant) was perfect!  The scriptures were perfect whenever they were penned or translated.  The fulfilling of the (1611) English Bible was perfect!  However, the Perfect had not yet come.  The Perfect is not here at present ...  when "the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain"  ...  the soon coming kingdom!  When we put on the incorruptible and see Him face to face!  This will be when the Perfect arrives and is fulfilled ...  a new creation (the born again in Christ), in a new heaven and a new earth, eternally in the presence of our risen Saviour.

Till then, it's business as usual.

Many blessings,

Your Brother in Christ,

Tom.

PS.  Paul speaking ... "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."

  8/5/01.  Updated last 30/7/06 NZ.