Re: Jesus or Yeshua? (saved material from "Without The Camp Fellowship and Discussion Board" - which was destroyed by a hacker or hackers on Ezboard).  However, as I believe the information to be vital here in exposing the heretical Hebraic Roots Movement and the extremes of its Messianic Movement counterparts, along with some of the unbiblical folly that goes with it, I thought I will upload it here on this site for those looking into this deception and comparing it with scripture, with general errors being corrected in order for the contents to be more 'reader friendly':

25/3/04 TL

Notice how simple the issue and question is ... "Jesus or Yeshua"?  Along with how hard it is for some to answer such a simple question?  Apparently the name Jesus is made up (invented that is), as this person remarked.  I'll stick to what my Bible says here in Luke 1:31.  Moreover, you will find His name conveyed in capitals here (as in Matt. 1:21 & 25) as God is emphasizing the importance of the precious name of His dear Son (remember - you will not find this in the New Age Versions):

 ... "and shalt call his name JESUS."

Then again in Luke 2:21:

 ...  "his name was called JESUS".

JESUS!  Not YESHUA nor Yeshua!

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Re: Jesus or Yeshua?

25/3/04 TL

Here's a quote straight off a "Yahweh" 'Sacred Names' site:

One GOD, One Saviour, One Name (link no longer vaild or http://message.godmail.com/forums/Bible_study/write/?forumcode=b&mode=edit&num=31477)

"In Zechariah 13 & 14, GOD foretells of Israel's recovery from false prophets.  In this, we see several interesting archetypes of either Jesus himself or his followers:  The false prophet's name shall be blotted out (It is a little known fact that "Yeshua", the original form for Jesus's name, happens to be a Hebrew acronymn for "May His Name Be Blotted Out Forever"). He shall not be remembered by GOD's people, and shall be impaled by his own family for his blasphemy.  Jesus was betrayed by some of his own followers, folks he at times called his family.  Many of the apostles were rejected by their own family, and ultimately impaled in crucifictions.  The false prophets shall be cast out of the land, and shall deny that each is a prophet, but call himself a shepherd, and his hands shall be wounded (crucifiction?). A shepherd shall be struck down. The sheep he is coveting shall be scattered. GOD shall test and save a third of them, and they shall return to him.  And 'Yahweh' shall be GOD's only name."

Here's a quote straight off a Christian - Muslim dialogue site:

"Jesus: What's in a Name

Here's a little name trivia for you (link no longer vaild)

"Some of you may be surprised to learn that Jesus' real name was "Yeshua", an Aramaic language perversion of the Hebrew name "Y'houshua" (meaning "God saves").  Jesus of Nazareth was not the only man ever named "Yeshua".  In fact, at Jesus' execution, the gospel tales also speak of the infamous criminal, "Jesus Bar-Abbas", which means, ironically, "Jesus, son of the Father".  The Hebrew letters in "Yeshua" are four of the most common letters in the Hebrew alphabet, a fact that provides much fuel for the Bible code fad of late. The name, "Yeshua", is also a Hebrew acronymn for "May his name be blotted out forever". "

Emphasis mine

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TL

"Please help" (a sister requiring info on the HRM):

Hi Faith,

The HRM (the Hebrew Roots Movement) and the SRM (Sacred Name Movement) are more subtle than many think.  In order to trap many of God's people with bondage to the law, something more deceptive than straight out keeping some of the "ordinances of the old" have had to be instigated.  Looking back to the Judaizers during the early church, circumcision was the issue.  In other words, if the Concision Party (Judaizers who masqueraded as true believers) could get the Gentile believers to be circumcised in order to be right with God, removing the simplicity which was in Christ, then they would have won their case, and they would have become the leaders of the new movement called The Way, and undermined the Lord raising up the apostles with the gospel of grace.

However, many today are enlightened enough to know that circumcision does not save, nor is it at all a requirement under the New.  Many are also aware of the pitfalls of coming under the ordinances from the Old Testament, which were only types and shadows until the reality arrived ...  Christ in us.

The subtle process in how the HRM has been effective though, has been in undermining the name of our Saviour.  The crux of the matter is that the NT was originally written in Greek being the universal language as English is today.  The modern day Judaizers argument is that the original name of our Saviour would have been in Hebrew or Aramaic (a Semitic dialect) as the early believers were Jewish.  So they use "logic" in order to subvert the naive away from the name of JESUS to generic Semitic counterparts such as Yeshua or Y'shua etc.  Once the name of our Lord Jesus Christ has been undermined this leaves room for a whole host of other Judaizing tactics to be implanted on the minds of the unsuspecting and undiscerning.  It is the thin edge of the wedge, but a very effective wedge.  The process works like this ...  if the name of Jesus can come under scrutiny then this would be a good reason for other aspects of the faith to come under scrutiny and questioned as historically authentic as well as inspired.

This is why we cannot afford to err from the simple name of Jesus for generic or scrambled substitutes, but to remain on guard constantly, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In a nutshell ...  the HRM is not a straight out attack on the New Covenant by marrying it with aspects of trying to observe the law (this comes later) but a scrutinizing of the name above all names (the one which the world trashes millions of times a second around the globe) in order to substitute it with a replacement name.  Then the Camel's Nose is within the tent.

Of course this apostasy will not stop until John 5:43 is fulfilled:

"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

A replacement name actually triggers of the following truth found in1 John 4:3:

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

Which would od course lead to the prophetic words of John found in Rev. 13:1:

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

(added later)  In other words ...  the crux of  the whole thrust of what both SNM and HRM is saying not only subverts our faith in the name of JESUS, but surmises a platform for the man of sin to appear and be hailed Messiah!

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15/2/04 TL

"May his name be blotted out"

This article is written not with the intention to stir up hate between Christian and Jew, nor Jew against Christian. The Bible is clear that the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah handing Him over to the Romans (representing the Gentile world) who still crucified Jesus after finding Him not guilty, making them equally as guilty.  Therefore, the Bible rightfully condemns all men's guilt before God Almighty for the death of Jesus, the Saviour of the world as acuractely dipicted in Acts 4: 26 - 28:

"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Both Jew and Gentile are both equally guilty for killing Jesus.  The only remedy for this guilt and wicked act is to receive Jesus' forgiveness and call out to the one whom they pierced. Everything else man does is futile and ends in destruction when he tries to side-step the cross.

Revelation 13:17 mentions how the world will be coerced into receiving, in league with the mark of the beast and the number of His name, the name of the beast.  Revelation 13 also speaks of this beast arising with seven heads and upon his heads "the name of blasphemy" being found there.  If this beast that arises is going to coerce the world into following a replacement for Jesus (a false messiah in other words), then surely the world is going to be coerced into receiving a replacement name for this replacement false Christ fulfilling the prophetic utterance of Jesus Himself who said:

"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

After all, the true biblical meaning of blasphemy is someone asserting itself as a replacement or on a par with God.

Today, we have a whole host of scrambled or generic names for God or our Saviour, and the Sacred Name Movement and the Hebraic Roots Movement playing host are the main instigators in replacing the biblical name of our Lord Jesus Christ (English derived from the Greek) with a Hebraic substitute.  Which cannot be historically verified or biblically constituted, as the New Testament was originally penned in the universal language of its day being Greek, with the New Testament backing itself to this claim (John 1:41; 4:25).

Paul was clear that "blindness in part is happened to Israel".  "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which vail is done away in Christ."

As a whole, they have rejected their Messiah and is the reason the Jews believe Jesus was an impostor.  Please view "The Jewish view of Jesus" on "The Differences between Judaism and Christianity"?  Please also view "Who was Jesus?" on "Why not Christianity?"

There has been a lot of controversy over the years in regards to the identity of the crucified enemy to Israel in the Jewish Talmud as being Jesus or not, with the prayer to his name as "may his name be blotted out".  Let's look at a couple of Jewish random quotes ...  the first is from a HRM site:

Quotes page source "A Hebraic Perspective of Messiah Yeshua"

{"The few things written about Yeshua (which they call Yeshua; an acronym for: May His Name be Blotted Out), however evil and gross they are, and some of them are really gross, only occupy an extremely tiny space compared to the entire work."} emphasis mine

{Now, it has long been Jewish public policy, when discussing the matter with Christians, to deny categorically any involvement with the death of
Jesus.  In private, however, it is acknowledged that Jesus is the mysterious malefactor whose torture and execution are described, in disturbingly
sadistic detail, over an extended portion of the Babylonian Talmud's Tractate Sanhedrin ("high courts").  In fact, editions of the Talmud in which
the passage has not been doctored up admit this expressly, as in the 193Os English version published by Soncino, which reads:  "On the eve of the
Passover Yeshu was hanged" (YESHU is the blasphemous acronym meaning "May his name and memory be blotted out" that is privately
appied by the rabbis to Jesus, in preference to his correct Hebrew name, Yeshua Ha-Notsri, Jesus [or Joshua] of Nazareth}. 27 [AP, "Piece by Bach
Stirs Debate in a Chorus," NYT, Feb 23, 1995, p. B8] Source "Origins of modern anti-Semitism" (page no longer valid) emphasis mine

After reading "They looked for a city" by Lydia Buksbazen about Jewish folk finding Jesus as their long awaited Messiah, I made this discovery:  Among the turmoil and persecution against Jews through 19th Century Europe to the mid 20th century, in this book she mentioned that they (the Jewish Christian converts of her day) looked at the name Yeshua as an impostor replacement name meaning "may his name - Jesus - be blotted out"!  Now it made sense why I was always uneasy when I saw believers who called themselves Messianic believers, usually giving the Lord a two-tiered name Jesus/Yeshua, or written 'Jesus (Yeshua)' or 'Yeshua (Jesus'), in order to try and convey their message and not offend a particular party.  A milder application than the full-blown Sacred Name concept where the name Jesus was redundant or invalid because of it's incorrect or apparent "pagan" origin, and replaced with it's Hebraic counterpart. God's intention, who is a God of order, would not have been confusion or choice, but the word unwavering, without a shadow of turning:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Is this name Yeshua or Jesus?

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19/3/04 TL

Years ago we were blessed by an Australian brother from India (who has written many books) who was a real encouragement for those here, WTC (without the camp).  The next thing he was doing was presenting a two tiered name for the Lord as Jesus/Yeshua.  This was very generous of Him giving us a choice in the name we chose when praying or ministering in the Lord.  Then he rewrote the New Testament in Hebrew replacing all the names of the Lord with Hebraic generic counterparts, teaching that because the early believers were Jewish, the NT would have originally been written in Hebrew also.  This of course is a major lie as obviously his agenda had moved.  Although the Old was Hebraic before the Lord tore down the partition separating the Old from the New, the NT was penned in the universal language of the day Greek, for a Greek speaking world.  NT scripture confirms this without a shadow of doubt as already mentioned!  If one can justify changing Jesus name then one can justify changing the believers New Testament, which would be handing the scriptures over to private interpretation resulting in human monopoly over revelation. This would open the door for the "other" man that will soon be received in "another" name (as mentioned earlier), replacing the true scriptural Messiah (John 5:43).

Jesus or Yeshua?  Christ or the false Messiah?